“Many young people support secular humanist ideas without realising it”

You have written a PhD on the history of euthanasia in Belgium. That issue, along with abortion, is the first thing many people think of when it comes to secular humanism, isn’t it?
Niels De Nutte: “When society considers changes to euthanasia or abortion laws, secular humanist organisations are often among the first to act. So that association is not surprising. A subject like euthanasia is as old as humanity, albeit under different interpretations, of course. In Belgium, the first newspaper articles on the subject appeared as early as the 1920s. From the 1950s, there was a social base among secularists to support ‘mercy killing’, as it was then called.”

Is euthanasia the core theme of secular humanism?
“Not really. Historically, a founding and formative issue is the fight for the right to a civil burial. Those who were not buried with a church service – cremation was still a long way from being an option – were stigmatised. This was done, among other things, by burying the deceased in a separate part of the cemetery, something that was then called the ‘dog corner’. Secularists tried to break the Catholic monopoly on dignified burials. The priests and a large section of the community resisted this fiercely. To guarantee a dignified civil burial, secularists had to organise solidarity funeral processions and ensure that people outside the church were buried like everyone else."

The civil burial in 1862 of Pierre-Théodore Verhaegen, St V, the founder of our university, caused quite a scandal among Catholics. How did that come about?
“His friends, mainly secularists and freemasons, watched over his deathbed at his request to prevent a priest from being brought in to administer the last sacraments. The civil burial was for a long time the motivating theme for secularism. In the early 20th century, for example, there was the right to cremation.”

Today, being buried or cremated without a church service is perfectly normal, and abortion and euthanasia are widely accepted. Have we have forgotten that these rights were once fought for?
“The abortion law was passed with a shifting majority in my birth year, 1990, and I was 12 when the laws on palliative care and euthanasia were enacted. So I have never known it any other way. Generations who grow up with certain rights may feel much less urgency to refine or expand these laws. Yet that was the original intent of the progressive actors. Abortion and euthanasia, though not literally in the latter case, are still in the criminal code. Many people do not realise this. The legal case following the death by euthanasia of Tine Nys has shown again that the charge of murder still hangs over doctors.”

Do you agree that the general feeling is that these rights have been definitively acquired?
“In the Western world, we like to believe that the world is progressing and only becoming more liberal. That is not true. Liberal rights such as abortion, euthanasia, surrogacy and same-sex marriage can be questioned and, in the worst case, reversed. Take a political party that says during the election campaign that LGBTI rights have been acquired, but then opposes sex education in schools."

Many teenagers have surprisingly conservative views, as we saw in the TV show Eerste Keuze, in the run-up to the elections. What do you make of this?
“My secondary school class was diverse, but I don’t remember conflicts over ideological issues. That has changed. When I visit secondary schools for interfaith class visits, it can be challenging to talk about liberal ideas. It’s possible, but it is more sensitive than before. This is related to the rise of more identity-based thinking.”

Is that a problem?
“It becomes a problem when people retreat into themselves, and say ‘I am this and only this, and what you say cannot be true’. Well, then the conversation is over. That ideological thinking is found at both ends of the spectrum. One young person says: ‘I am vegan and therefore you can no longer eat meat’. And the other says: ‘I am Muslim, and therefore you cannot talk about LGBTI people in my class’. The first statement is considered progressive by some, the second conservative. But if you let go of the left-right framework, the reasoning is actually the same. In both cases, it’s about people who attach great importance to a particular interpretation of their identity.”

Where does secular humanism fit into that discussion?
“Identity-based thinking is diametrically opposed to secular thinking. Being secular means thinking critically and being pluralistic and non-dogmatic. An identity-based thought is by definition a dogmatic thought.”

Can secular humanism still appeal to this generation?
“Many young people – and older people too – support secular humanism without realising it. When I speak at a Catholic school to a class that has never heard of the philosophy, no one raises their hand. But when I finish my explanation, there are often students who ask where they can join. Then I have to explain to them that we are not a church and don’t have membership. If you explain it, many young people will identify with the ideas, something that historian Callum Brown calls the ‘humanist condition’.”

Can we apply those ideas practically in these polarised times?
“I am convinced that you can only counter polarisation by looking at the world critically. Secular humanism offers a serious added value as a guiding framework, and that includes within our university. We must also dare to address difficult topics. The Israel-Palestine conflict is very painful. It is important to teach children and young people how to form a viewpoint based on a thorough understanding of the background of that conflict. That sort of approach puts a brake on polarisation. The same goes for, say, Trump. In secondary schools, I try to explain how the electoral system in the US works and how someone with his problematic values can still become president. You need to understand that to prevent it from happening again.”

Knowledge is no longer attractive. Everything revolves around opinions. Do you agree?
“As Caroline Pauwels said: ‘Everyone has the right to their own opinion and can learn from it, but it becomes problematic when you have the right to your own facts.’ That perfectly sums up the core values of secular humanism. Pluralism can only exist through critical thinking, and critical thinking is based on generally accepted facts. In today’s world, non-factuality is rampant. That makes it so difficult. What used to be shouted at the bar, so to speak, didn’t reach outside the walls of the bar. Everyone else drank their beer and thought: leave me alone. Now, that shouting finds its way into the world, via Twitter and Facebook.”

Many young people get almost all their information from social media. Is that a problem?
“As a historian, I find that a sad and depressing development. Only by reading and learning a lot do you realise that the more you know, the more you know you don’t know. Those who read little today often think they know everything. It is a dichotomy that secular organisations also struggle with. The Humanist Association raises new topics almost daily on its platform, in the form of short texts. The reading time is seven or eight minutes. The content remains critical, but you are not spending an hour on it. And deMens.nu is on TikTok. Apparently, that resonates. They want to translate to a broad audience and the formats that young people use. For a philosophy like secular humanism, that is incredibly difficult. Secularism was built by highly educated people and less educated people who had a great thirst for knowledge, which they could quench in the high schools and libraries of, for example, the Vermeylen or Willems foundations. As a researcher, I sometimes wonder if we are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.”

Secular humanism puts the human being at the centre and believes in the malleability of society and the world. The environmental and climate crisis seems to test this optimism. The Belgian philosopher Jaap Kruithof once advocated for an eco-centric humanism, with the human as part of the whole. What do you think of that philosophy?
“That is a vision that has been gaining ground within organised secularism in recent years. The Dutch environmental philosopher Floris Van den Berg, who teaches a course in our postgraduate programme, talks about eco-humanism. The human being remains central, but is embedded in all life on the planet.”

Can you be spiritual as a secular humanist?
“Leo Apostel wrote a book about it: Atheistic Spirituality. For me, spirituality is about being present, being amazed. Ode to Wonder, if I may quote Caroline Pauwels again. That’s it. Humanists look at the world with wonder.”